I can only shake my head at how messed up this is.
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Religion
Things you Should NOT be Grateful for
03.20.08 | 14 Comments
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Ryan Harkness and Jacob Fortin are both writers and comedians, as well full time godless heathens.
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Wow. This definitely turns the problem of evil on it’s head, and NOT in a good way.
God let’s bad things happen, and we should be thankful.
This is morally repugnant.
What’s so messed up about it? If you believe in God, then you must also believe that there’s a reason for the trials/problems/etc that you go through. Scripture is very clear on this:
“In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith–of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire–may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.” - 1 Peter 1:6-7
“Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.” - 1 Peter 4:12-13
(These were written to Christians during the time of Nero, when Christians were used as street lamps, tortured, or put in the arena to fight for sport.)
This type of attitude comes from a correct biblical view of why (seemingly) bad things happen to you, a view which gives reason for the trial and hope of a day when things will be put right (”when Christ is revealed”). What I’d like to know is what is the atheist’s reason? Where’s the atheist’s hope?
I’ve been on this site awhile. You’ve mentioned wanting to create a community for atheists and such. But all I’ve seen from your podcasts and writings is bashing other religions. What do you have to offer your community? What would you tell a person dying from cancer? “Tough luck”? “That sucks”? What is it, in your opinion, that makes atheism so attractive over a relationship with God, forgiveness of your sins, and promise of an eternal life with Him?
So.. let me get this straight, Sky daddy abuses his children, and the children thank him for it. Doesn’t sound like someone I would want controlling my destiny.
“What would you tell a person dying from cancer?” something along the lines of “hang in there” or “Medical science is making advances all the time, it’s treatable.” I wouldn’t LIE to them. Sometimes bad things happen for no reason.
Atheism is more “attractive” than organized religion to me because it doesn’t surrender itself to something that has not been proven to exist, nor to a false promise of immortality. Sins? What an abstract concept. I don’t need forgiveness for not following arbitrary rules that somebody decided to impose on me. I’m not a criminal, so I don’t need to feel guilty for what I do, or don’t do. I would also like to point out that Atheism isn’t about what ‘feels good’ or what ‘makes us cozy’. It’s about realizing that we live in the here and now, not on supposed (and unfounded) promises after you die. Besides, god sounds like an abusive parent, why would I want to spend even an afternoon with this guy.
hey ben,
stop posting scripture i know nobodys vists your site but thats not a reason to try to get converts from here. Atheists rock Atheists from CANADA rock even harder.
This is just another example of how “the god concept” messes people up. They need to see how bad things could be to appreciate how good they have it.
This god is one weird dude.
If you believe in god and all this bad shit happens, wouldn’t you say: “Hey man, somethings not right here. God is fucking with me and he won’t tell me why, but it is for a reason”
He works in mysterious fucking ways alright. Like, he won’t heal amputees. Go figure.
“What is it, in your opinion, that makes atheism so attractive over a relationship with God, forgiveness of your sins, and promise of an eternal life with Him?”
Unfortunately, atheism isn’t about what we WISH were true, or what is most “attractive” to us. We actually care about what IS true.
It seems to me that if God is responsible for all the things the people in the video are saying, that this is in conflict with the idea of an all-good, all-loving god. Or is your god evil in fact? That would make a lot more sense I suppose.
What’s strange is that the ancient question of evil, asked first by Epicurus have never really been answered:
If evil exists and God does nothing to stop it, then he is not Omnipotent. If he can but refuses to, then his is not Omni-Benevolent. Instead of really answering this question, we are given the “works in mysterious ways” answer, which is itself completely unsatisfying.
Yes, I did talk about creating a community. If the fans of the podcast and site are saddened that this has not yet happened, I’m sorry that I haven’t had more time to devote to this project. In time, I will. Until then, I continue to report of the funny, outrageous, or grotesque. I feel that each time I do, I am providing the opportunity to someone to see beyond the myths that governs their lives.
What does atheism offer to someone? Must a view of the cosmos offer you anything? Is it not for you to discover those things yourself? All I want people to see is that the arguments FOR god are weaker than the arguments AGAINST god, and that it is entirely possible to live a decent, fulfilling life without the need for religion. I think many people on the site have appreciated my efforts.
“If evil exists and God does nothing to stop it, then he is not Omnipotent. If he can but refuses to, then his is not Omni-Benevolent.” While not familiar with this exact statement, I think I have the answer: God’s view of what is good for us isn’t the same as what we think is good for us. Let’s take the amputee question for example. What if being an amputee is meant to be an opportunity to minister to other amputees and give them hope? Is that not a good cause? It’s about finding the purpose of your situation and what it’s supposed to be teaching you.
Christianity is about what is true as well. What is true and scientifically provable are not always the same though. For example, I believe that something outside of the universe created the universe. Is that not reasonable? I also believe the the universe seems to be made to support life. Also reasonable? Is then reasonable to say that whatever created the universe created it to support life? I’ve also had experiences much like described in Jacob’s previous podcast (many of them, in fact) which I believe are God-ordained, for lack of a better word. Again, why is this not reasonable? It’s these reasons that I feel best fill in the gaps between science and truth.
“Must a view of the cosmos offer you anything? Is it not for you to discover those things yourself?” Er, shouldn’t your view of the cosmos offer you an answer to life’s questions, ie where did I come from, why am I here, what happens to me when I die? Isn’t that the point of all this atheism and Christianity?
@joe b - thanks for the comment on my site yesterday. I’m actually not trying to get converts from here, just standing up for the truth (despite the odds). Believe it or not, I actually like the discussion on this site. People don’t talk about these issues enough. And I actually think Jacob likes me posting here, he gets more comments when I stir the pot
PS Can you fix the line breaks on your comments? Kinda hard to read when it’s all stuffed together.
I’m sorry, “standing up for the truth”?
I cannot understand why every life view should need to have a meaning beyond here and now. And why believe something just because it’s attractive? That’s like trying to debunk how we know dew is formed by saying that it would be cooler if elves made it. Also (I genuinely want to know) why are the other amputees amputees? What is the reason for them and why didn’t god just not have any disabled people if their ‘purpose’ is to help other disabled people? Why should anyone be thankful for something like a miscarriage or rape or a loved one becoming brain-dead? Not many loving parents would want that for their children. I’d love to hear some other opinions on this.
Have fun,
Jessica
Hmmm, I’m in between on this one. I see why the video is shocking, I see why if, for example, you or someone you knew had been raped it would likely ENRAGE you…(and apart from anything else all of the people, especially the women, just come across like brainwashed zombies)…..BUT I feel the point may be being missed.
Please don’t tear me apart, I am NOT trying to impose my view on anyone else, I am merely interested in intelligent debate.
If you leave the God stuff out of it for a minute…since there are so many different ways of thinking about God…..the THOUGHT behind this video could make sense….for example I’ve been through some pretty traumatic experiences that I AM greatful for because I most definitely did become more of a person through the lessons they taught me. I am not basing this on a belief that a distant deity desired me to become a better person, I really am glad that these things happened….they gave me better understanding of other people and of the negative effects some of my own behaviours had in my own life.
Also, purely for argument’s sake, if you believe you are responsible for your own destiny, which I do, then, there is your answer to the eternal question: ‘why do bad things happen to good people?’……cause and effect…..bad things happen because you do not understand the effects of certain of your actions….and they will continue to happen until you take the time to look at your life and try to understand what negative thoughts or behaviour patterns you may need to change.
Jacob, I really enjoy your pieces, keep up the good work!
Ben, I also find your responses interesting and intelligent. Though the scripture gets annoying! It would suit me better if you stuck to your own thoughts….plus I think you’d be taken more seriously!
Finally, I have a question, if anyone feels like answering that would be cool….. I am not religious in the sense that I don’t follow any organised religion and don’t agree with the idea of God advocated by the religions that I do know about….BUT I do have a strong faith in my own spiritual beliefs….I’m interested in the areas where science and a belief in the spiritual overlap. So am I an atheist, or very much not so?
Thanks for the interesting reading! sue
susanna:
Based on what you’ve said there, you seem to be more agnostic than atheistic. I don’t believe that religiosity necessarily predicates spirituality; one can certainly exist without the other. Also, not subscribing to an organized religion does not necessarily indicate atheism.
As far as the subject of the science of spirituality, this is also something I’ve been interested in for a long time. If you’re interested, I would recommend Matthew Alper’s The “God” Part Of The Brain: A Scientific Interpretation Of Human Spirituality And God. The author presents ideas about the evolutionary basis and function of spirituality. If nothing else, it certainly presents some interesting ideas.
WOW, I can’t believe how unbelievably stupid and ignorant Ben is. Ben you know next to nothing about Atheism, so stop acting like you do.
“Let’s take the amputee question for example. What if being an amputee is meant to be an opportunity to minister to other amputees and give them hope? Is that not a good cause?”
Well dumbass if there were no amputees to begin with there would be no need for amputees to give other amputees “hope”. Second atheists, most of us at least, don’t have a capacity or need for hope, faith,etc. We plan and execute, we “do” instead of desiring, wanting, hoping to.
“What is true and scientifically provable are not always the same though.”
I bet you you cannot prove the existence of your god without any “evidence” that can also be used against him. I don’t care how you prove it, as long as you do, so just try to prove me wrong and your god right.
“Er, shouldn’t your view of the cosmos offer you an answer to life’s questions, ie where did I come from, why am I here, what happens to me when I die? Isn’t that the point of all this atheism and Christianity?”
No stupid fuck, that’s the view of Christianity. We are not the same you and I. I really don’t need or care for any “answers” because frankly there is no reason to believe the Universe has been here and probably will always be. We need no explanation of how the universe began.
Thanks C.S.! I will look out for it! I never saw myself as agnostic because I do believe in my own concept of ‘God’, just not as religions define the idea.
I’m very interested in Quantum Physics and how the new ideas it is presenting go against previously established scientific notions in a way that may allow science and spiritualists to agree on many issues after years of estrangement…..an interesting DVD about all this is called ‘What the Bleep Do We Know?’…..I’d reccommend it!
Lol I googled my name to check my internet trail after my ISP tried to screw me for downloading stuff and I found this great site!
I made a little mistake on my last paragraph, small typo. Capitalized missing words.
No stupid fuck, that’s the view of Christianity. We are not the same you and I. I really don’t need or care for any “answers” because frankly there is no reason NOT to believe THAT the Universe has been here and probably will always be. We need no explanation of how the universe began.